tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post3413412109688063620..comments2024-01-28T04:42:49.700-08:00Comments on DIK (Desert Island Keepers): Heroes Who CheatDIK Ladieshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03975839058527201650noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-39803221074001708502011-10-16T06:04:59.234-07:002011-10-16T06:04:59.234-07:00Hi Kaetrin
I agree, nothing was done in a sneaky ...Hi Kaetrin<br /><br />I agree, nothing was done in a sneaky fashion and it was all honest and out in the open, so it wasn't cheating in my book. I think some readers couldn't stand the idea that one of the heroes needed more than his lover could offer. I can see their point, especially if you are a reader who needs their characters to remain totally true to each other, even if permission is given.<br /><br />It didn't bother me though, rather it gave a different perspective to the relationships in the book.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-65118296469043720482011-10-15T16:44:06.063-07:002011-10-15T16:44:06.063-07:00"Marie Sexton got a lot of flak for the Lette..."Marie Sexton got a lot of flak for the Letter Z..."<br /><br />ORLY? I didn't know. That never struck me as cheating either. I agree with Jenre - it was about something else entirely.Kaetrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16936055488367251592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-42690328876998939282011-10-15T09:05:53.494-07:002011-10-15T09:05:53.494-07:00Hi Lou
There is a sizable contingency of m/m read...Hi Lou<br /><br /><i>There is a sizable contingency of m/m readers that can only accept sex between motionally committed partners. Any sort of casual sex, temptation, even hero with sexually active past, or past mistakes are rejected. The problem with is that it makes for boring, cardboard cutout characters.</i><br /><br />You are right that some readers are very rigid when it comes to any hint of infidelity - and some will have a good reason for being so. I didn't think that the scene you are referring to in the Marie sexton book was infidelity when the hero had the blessing of his lover, but I did wonder how it would affect their relationship in the future. Fortunately Ms Sexton made sure it was addressed effectively :).<br /><br />Perfect cardboard cut-out heroes are just not my sort of thing. Men like that are just dull and I like some spice in my characterisation.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-27449345096285614322011-10-15T09:02:28.262-07:002011-10-15T09:02:28.262-07:00Hi Stevie
I'd be more concerned by a romance...Hi Stevie<br /><br /><i> I'd be more concerned by a romance where a character took back a formerly violent partner than one who'd been unfaithful. Either way though it all depends on how the story is handled.</i><br /><br />Yes, domestic violence is another tricky subject to handle in a romance. I don't think I've ever read one where the couple has remained together by the end.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-10372947705511033942011-10-15T08:39:45.088-07:002011-10-15T08:39:45.088-07:00Mary Sexton got a lot of flack for "Letter Z,...Mary Sexton got a lot of flack for "Letter Z," even though there was no real cheating in the book. There is a sizable contingency of m/m readers that can only accept sex between motionally committed partners. Any sort of casual sex, temptation, even hero with sexually active past, or past mistakes are rejected. The problem with is that it makes for boring, cardboard cutout characters.Lou Harperhttp://lou-harper.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-17632553776845377562011-10-14T22:53:47.615-07:002011-10-14T22:53:47.615-07:00I definitely wouldn't give up on a story becau...I definitely wouldn't give up on a story because of infidelity. I'd be more concerned by a romance where a character took back a formerly violent partner than one who'd been unfaithful. Either way though it all depends on how the story is handled.Stevie Carrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02172414866093930481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-49646888127563978952011-10-14T06:26:52.699-07:002011-10-14T06:26:52.699-07:00@Jenre: Exactly! I couldn't have out it better...@Jenre: <i>Exactly! I couldn't have out it better myself. Hmmm, maybe I should have got you to write the post for me :).</i><br /><br />I'll admit, I speak from experience. :) I'll have to push the infidelity book up the ladder on the 'to write' list. :D It would be an emotional ride, but I think well worth it.<br /><br />@Sharon:<br />Oh, yes. Definitely a HEA. A rocky middle, but a solid ending. I like happy endings! ;)S.L. Armstronghttp://www.slarmstrong.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-32324187507431410212011-10-14T06:04:22.150-07:002011-10-14T06:04:22.150-07:00@ Armstrong - would love to read that story. I nee...@ Armstrong - would love to read that story. I need a good tear-jerker with a HEA every once in a while. It would have a HEA, wouldn't it? . A book that can make me cry, lol, cuss and/or squee is what I look for.Sharon Stognerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12732141088637958862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-45913594165632246212011-10-14T03:49:41.542-07:002011-10-14T03:49:41.542-07:00Hi Kaetrin
Yes, lots of grovelling followed by fo...Hi Kaetrin<br /><br />Yes, lots of grovelling followed by forgiveness!Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-5777145267992414462011-10-14T03:48:44.177-07:002011-10-14T03:48:44.177-07:00Hi SL
Everyone who cheats in life isn't a jer...Hi SL<br /><br /><i>Everyone who cheats in life isn't a jerk. Everyone who accepts a cheater back into their relationship isn't weak. It takes a hell of a lot of work to come back from infidelity, and it takes a lot of strength. </i><br /><br />Exactly! I couldn't have out it better myself. Hmmm, maybe I should have got you to write the post for me :).<br /><br />I certainly would be interested in a book that looks at the effects of infidelity in the long term. They won't appeal to everyone but there's still a market for stories like that.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-43210635443366190982011-10-14T03:06:47.502-07:002011-10-14T03:06:47.502-07:00There definitely has to be grovelling! But, if it&...There definitely has to be grovelling! But, if it's done well, I can cope with a cheating storyline.Kaetrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16936055488367251592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-58626004577576850012011-10-13T11:06:07.763-07:002011-10-13T11:06:07.763-07:00I'm partial to flawed characters. Flawed chara...I'm partial to flawed characters. Flawed characters, to me, are <i>real</i> characters. As much as I love the fantasy of a romance, I also like the realism of characters. And characters--like people--make mistakes. They can cheat. They can hit. They can call their lovers horrible names. They can do a lot, and if it's handled well, then it creates a rounded, real character. What's important for me is motivation and consequences.<br /><br />Everyone who cheats in life isn't a jerk. Everyone who accepts a cheater back into their relationship isn't weak. It takes a hell of a lot of work to come back from infidelity, and it takes a lot of strength. Maybe the issue is that a lot of authors don't deal with the real, long-term consequences of cheating?<br /><br />I don't know. I know K. Piet and I have the idea to write a book that centers solely on infidelity and price paid and the road back... mainly because of all the negativity about such storylines. To me, those are romantic. They show dedication on both characters in the relationship, and that shouldn't be belittled, you know?S.L. Armstronghttp://www.slarmstrong.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-4076353451442505732011-10-13T10:45:10.494-07:002011-10-13T10:45:10.494-07:00Hi Hilcia
I love to see what writers do with a s...Hi Hilcia<br /><br /><i> I love to see what writers do with a situation like infidelity, how they turn it around at the end (how or if they can make it work). </i><br /><br />Yes! And the fact that the theme is so controversial means that the author often has to work hard to make the HEA believable. It makes for good reading!<br /><br />Jake definitely had a LOT of growing to do. It was a delight to see this through Adrien's increasingly jaded viewpoint.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-67597909814452238622011-10-13T10:41:34.266-07:002011-10-13T10:41:34.266-07:00I agree with you on this one, Jenre. I happen to l...I agree with you on this one, Jenre. I happen to like flawed characters and would never dismiss a book because of supposed, imagined or real cheating. I love to see what writers do with a situation like infidelity, how they turn it around at the end (how or if they can make it work). <br /><br />Jake's example in the Adrien English mysteries is an execellent one. His was a character that needed growth in different areas (not just fidelity), and I can't imagine missing the changes and character growth that both he and Adrien went through by the end of that series.Hilciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765831808358693421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-90763714213368410482011-10-13T10:41:18.492-07:002011-10-13T10:41:18.492-07:00Hi Jen
They don't find it sexy. That's a ...Hi Jen<br /><br /><i>They don't find it sexy. That's a valid argument for them, but for me, it narrows the romance world considerably by making authors afraid to tackle certain subjects.</i><br /><br />I think you are right there. I've heard from a few authors who are frankly rather baffled at the negative backlash they've had from their books with cheating characters in them and I can see why it would make an author reluctant to tackle such a topic again<br /><br /><i> it takes a skilled author to pull of the character growth required to make infidelity be forgivable. </i><br /><br />Yes, it's the growth that's the important thing and what makes the book realistic, especially if it is to have a happy ending. I also agree that the timeline has to be right. It can'#t be solved in two days or a week. This sort of theme also doesn't tend to work in a short story unless the story deals with the act of contrition and forgiveness rather than the whole story from start to finish.<br /><br />I've read stories where I just haven't believed that the cheater either deserves forgiveness at that stage or has done enough to gain forgiveness by showing that they are truly sorry, and that's where such a theme fails for me.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-33961173479636846102011-10-13T09:15:02.456-07:002011-10-13T09:15:02.456-07:00I've seen readers who automatically condemn al...I've seen readers who automatically condemn all infidelity use the argument that they know it happens all the time in "real" life, but they just don't want to read about it in their fantasies/romances. They don't find it sexy. That's a valid argument for them, but for me, it narrows the romance world considerably by making authors afraid to tackle certain subjects.<br /><br />Maybe it's because I love lots of angst in my romance, but I find it incredibly moving when an author shows the progression of a romance, warts and all. I also think the problem might be that it takes a skilled author to pull of the character growth required to make infidelity be forgivable. You can't take the easy way out and just expect a romance reader to accept a 180 degree turnaround when a character has cheated if you don't show character growth. <br /><br />I also think that the short time periods in most romances work against this kind of storyline. When the action takes place over a week or two, you kind of have to move into a committed relationship right away. You can't have one of the characters cheating on Friday, then committing to the relationship on Saturday and expect readers to be okay with that.JenMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381388317577838604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-72109038590035129502011-10-13T08:51:49.700-07:002011-10-13T08:51:49.700-07:00Hi KZ
What really mystifies me is when readers fu...Hi KZ<br /><br /><i>What really mystifies me is when readers fuss over "cheating" before the H/h or H/H have even committed to each other. </i><br /><br />I know what you mean. There are a lot of m/m romances where the men date or see each other casually. It's not cheating if no-one has made a commitment. There are a lot more instances of 'open relationships' in m/m romances too which hardly ever crops up in m/f romance. I'm reading a book at the moment where the couple are keeping things casual and have just got the the stage where they realise that things are getting serious and it's time to commit - I always like that bit :).Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-70667702700319998962011-10-13T08:47:13.500-07:002011-10-13T08:47:13.500-07:00Hi Dick
It does, as the synonymous "breakin...Hi Dick<br /><br /> <i>It does, as the synonymous "breaking faith" implies break the connection, and even if mended, leaves an ugly scar, none of which "fits" romance.</i><br /><br />That can be very true, but I also find that stories where there is some wrongdoing leading to forgiveness very romantic, which is why infidelity stories can work for me. <br /><br />That's the key though - genuine repentance and forgiveness. Otherwise there will always be a scar and a weak spot in a relationship. I've seen in happen with people I know where there has been infidelity and the couple have decided to remain together. Yet in every argument or disagreement since the injured person in the couple has thrown the infidelity in the face of the other person. That isn't true forgiveness and therefore there's always that strain.<br /><br />I suppose this is why I need to believe that the person has truly changed their ways and will remain faithful.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-83085148177649875872011-10-13T08:29:34.674-07:002011-10-13T08:29:34.674-07:00What really mystifies me is when readers fuss over...What <i>really</i> mystifies me is when readers fuss over "cheating" before the H/h or H/H have even committed to each other. What's up with that? <br /><br />Two people do not become a couple from the moment they realize they're attracted to one another. They might not even consider themselves a couple once they start dating. "Couple" status is achieved after exclusivity is mutually agreed upon; it doesn't happen the instant two pairs of eyes meet.<br /><br />I appreciate fictional romantic relationships a whole lot more when they take into account the realities of human nature.K. Z. Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373906799954038740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-49805522894376564452011-10-13T08:22:58.463-07:002011-10-13T08:22:58.463-07:00I can't see any point at which infidelity and ...I can't see any point at which infidelity and romance can either compliment or complement one another. It does, as the synonymous "breaking faith" implies break the connection, and even if mended, leaves an ugly scar, none of which "fits" romance.<br /><br />dickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-19150500922658556412011-10-13T07:12:09.519-07:002011-10-13T07:12:09.519-07:00Hi Sharon
it says something about the person who ...Hi Sharon<br /><br /><i>it says something about the person who got cheated on if they take the cheater back.</i><br /><br />Yes, that can be a tricky one. A good author will be able to pull that part off without the other hero seeming weak. Like I said to Beebs, we need to see that the forgiveness has been cherished by the other hero remaining faithfulJenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-62894838499829587682011-10-13T07:09:21.607-07:002011-10-13T07:09:21.607-07:00Hi Jo
Yes, I wonder :).
especially when it's...Hi Jo<br /><br />Yes, I wonder :).<br /><br /><i>especially when it's a one-off mistake rather than a sustained deception. </i><br /><br />This is the key for me with some cheater books. One off mistakes can be forgiven, sustained cheating is less sympathetic.<br /><br />I agree though characters like Jake work because of the suffering that goes along with the cheating. Jake spends most of the series a deeply unhappy man because of the choices he makes.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-31879630074950441312011-10-13T07:03:08.238-07:002011-10-13T07:03:08.238-07:00Hi Beebs
Certainly, it's not enough to tell me...Hi Beebs<br /><i>Certainly, it's not enough to tell me the H/h is sorry and won't do it again. Show me.</i><br /><br />That's certainly true. This is why it's not just enough to have a declaration of love and then the book end. We have to see that the hero has remained faithful and that there is genuine remorse for his actions.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-61123995672876291612011-10-13T06:32:55.836-07:002011-10-13T06:32:55.836-07:00Hmmm, I wonder which book this was, Jen?!
I'm...Hmmm, I wonder which book this was, Jen?!<br /><br />I'm like you, and am surprised at the vehemence of some readers' reactions to what they perceive as cheating - especially when it's a one-off mistake rather than a sustained deception.<br /><br />With Dan in <i>Barging In</i>, for instance, I felt I had to include a slip up in his fidelity, because I simply couldn't believe in an overnight transformation from free-and-easy party boy to monogamous in a long distance relationship. I kept it as mild and non-titillating as I could, while staying within what I thought was in character for him in that situation - especially after the disinhibiting effects of a few drinks.<br /><br />Mind you, I find I can forgive even those characters who cheat on a longer term basis, like Jake in Adrien English, or Don Draper in Mad Men. Like you say, so long as the motivations and consequences are clearly shown, and they aren't blithely doing it without a care in the world, then I'll keep on reading. I'll even wish them an HEA.<br /><br />We all have our flaws, and often those character flaws will cause others pain and distress, intentional or not. Infidelity certainly isn't something I'd condone in real life, but I like to hope I'll always find it in my heart to understand and forgive people who are weak in this respect, especially when they're genuinely trying to do better.Josephine Myleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04469455529741307720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012664417591303836.post-79085218032332274072011-10-13T06:31:55.576-07:002011-10-13T06:31:55.576-07:00great post. I agree with you. I don't like che...great post. I agree with you. I don't like cheating because it says something about the person who got cheated on if they take the cheater back. In most books the hero or heroine is suppose to be strong and independent and for them to accept being cheated on usually goes against who they are.<br />I *love the Adrian English series and it broke my heart when Adrian found out about Jake's cheating, but that is one of my favorite love stories.Sharon Stognerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12732141088637958862noreply@blogger.com